Transcript: Dr. Scott Gottlieb on Facing the Nation, March 5, 2023

The following is a transcript of an interview with Dr. Scott Gottlieb that aired on Face the Nation on Sunday, March 5, 2023.

MARGARET BRENNAN: And now we’re back with former FDA commissioner and Pfizer board member, Dr. Scott Gottlieb. Good morning. Welcome. I’m glad to see you.

DR. SCOTT GOTLIB: Good morning.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Dr. Gottlieb. I wanted you to kind of give us some context because I know you’ve said in the past on this program that we will probably never know the origin of COVID-19 unless we find the exact animal that carried the virus. or a smoking gun proving that it accidentally leaked out of the lab. You said both theories are plausible. Has anything changed that made you more confident?

DR. GOTLIB: Well, look, I think there’s enough information in the public domain to suggest that it could have come from a lab, maybe a strong suggestion. We have seen some additional reports, there is classified information that has not been released to the public, you heard that the congressman even referred to classified information that even Congress did not see in this case. And I think, based on that premise, that, you know, there’s a possibility that it happened in the lab. We may never be able to prove this with certainty. We need to start acting like he came out of the lab and take steps to make sure it doesn’t happen again. A lot has happened around labs in China, in particular the WIV in Wuhan, the Wuhan Institute of Virology, which have created sleazy conditions. They did high-risk studies in low-level, low-security labs. They were doing risky research. You heard the congressman talking about the research that was being done in that lab. We know that the Chinese military was working in this lab at the same time. So we need to look at all these things. I would focus on activities in and around this lab, and based on that, what steps do we need to take going forward to make sure we provide better security for high risk research, that if this comes out of the lab, it’s- it won’t happen again.

MARGARET BRENNAN: And we talked about this program with Matt Pottinger, who worked in the Trump administration, and he said that intelligence should be a more reliable part of the defense against the pandemic. And I know that you agree with that. You know, there was an article in The New York Times by David Wallace Wells, author of an article titled “We Talked Wrong About the Lab Leak Theory.” And the argument is, lean on lab theory and just see how to prevent leaks from the lab. He calls for things like national registration of risk-benefit-based studies, new safety standards, global governance. Why doesn’t this exist? And why is it not created?

DR. GOTLIB: Yes, I think it should be. I mean, we have been doing this for three years already, there are some recommendations that are on the president’s desk. I think we need to start getting serious and see what steps need to be taken. You know, we’re still stuck in a debate about whether this was a lab leak. I don’t think we’re going to prove it. I think we should assume that there is a possibility that this was a leak from the lab and start implementing the protections that we need. The congressman was talking about making research more effective. He pointed out that there was no real commercial prerogative for such research. I agree with him. We have to see if we ban such research. And of course if it happens in BSL-4 labs, high security labs under very strict conditions where we know what’s going on and don’t outsource it to labs in China. Sometimes the highest risk experiments are given to the worst labs around the world because they are the ones willing to run those experiments. And so if we’re going to do high-risk research because we think it’s important from a national security standpoint, and that’s the only context in which it makes sense, there really isn’t any commercial context in which it would make sense. . ; we need to get better control over it. And in Matt’s view, in Matt Pottinger’s view, we need the intelligence services to deal with this as a matter of national security, as part of their national security mission, and look at public health readiness through a national security lens. I think we are doing it now. But we have to be very explicit about this. And that also means looking out for some of the high-risk activities that can create such risks.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So, but this is the White House, and this is the intelligence agencies, not a congressional mandate.

DR. GOTLIB: Look, Congress definitely has a role to play here. I think Congress could start making a list of recommendations for the administration. The administration has recommendations from independent bodies. Ultimately, it will be federal rules that will apply to federally funded research, as well as what we are trying to do through international conventions, working with the WHO and the World Health Assembly to try to get international agreements. place on what countries are ready and not going to do. Now you can’t stop rogue regimes from doing this kind of research. This is where intelligence agencies come in to monitor to see if fraudulent regimes are conducting high-risk research that could set the stage for a leak from the lab, unintentionally or intentionally.

MARGARET BRENNAN: The Biden administration called on China to provide more information, but they didn’t. Dr. Fauci spoke about this in November on this program. I also want to ask you about what we just learned about President Biden’s health. He had this skin cancer diagnosis removed: basal cell carcinoma. Given his age, is there any reason to be more concerned about this?

DR. GOTLIB: There is no reason to be concerned about this particular defeat. It is a slow growing cancer, usually limited to the surface of the skin, that can be completely removed with a minor surgical procedure. Looks like the president has taken it out completely. This should not be repeated, it usually does not spread. These types of lesions usually occur on areas of the body that are exposed to the sun. This is due to exposure to ultraviolet radiation, which is why you usually see it on the neck or face. Just to be clear, it doesn’t look like melanoma when it looks like a very dark, irregular lesion. It usually looks like a clear, waxy growth, possibly scaly so it looks different. But the president must be completely cured of it with a small surgical procedure to remove it.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Dr. Gottlieb, it’s always a pleasure to talk to you.

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